Lakers Training Camp/Preseason 25/26 Talk

Jokic is better than Curry and Duncan. My personal ranking:

Jordan
Kareem
Lebron
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Russell
Jokic
Wilt
Duncan
Shaq
Curry
Hakeem
Durant
KG

I think Wemby can break into that. I’m not sure that Luka or Giannis can. I also don’t rate SGA that highly - just like I don’t Harden. Great players but not all time greats, they’re on the Wade level. That’s where I can see Flag, although it’s way too early to call.

 

Not a bad list, I just can't place Bird, over Magic or Kobe though. Luka has to win a couple of rings, but he can slide past KG and Durant. Wemby...I don't know if his body will hold up long term. He's super skinny and athletic, but at 7'2 , he's prone to be getting injured frequently IMO.

 

7’4-5”

 

luka had a better start to his career than almost anyone ever. you're saying that if he wins a couple rings, he can't crack a list of guys who he's probably outperformed? durant would have zero rings without the cap smoothing rejection.

 

Maybe better phrasing should be used, I believe Wemby will if he can stay healthy regardless, he is that good that he’ll win a few rings without help. Luka needs to win 2-3 rings and stay healthy for another decade at this level. If he does that and if Giannis wins another ring, I think I’d have my list like this:

Jordan
Kareem
Lebron
Bird
Magic
Kobe
Russell
Jokic
Wilt
Duncan
Shaq
Luka
Curry
Hakeem
Giannis
Durant
KG

I know everyone loves Curry, but he benefitted from that KD trade a lot by gaining two Mickey Mouse rings, I do believe that LeBron takes at least one of those years if it wasn’t for KD being the most mentally weak all time great. Now you have young generations saying Curry is better than Kobe.

 

I toss up Magic and Kobe all the time. Magic gets a lot of love, but I do think Kobe was the better player in a vacuum, better defender, better shooter and scorer. But then Magic raised the level of those around him significantly - but I ask myself with today’s modern defense would he still be as useful or would he be a better decision making Westbrook? Then I see Halliburton be successful and I think Magic would still be great.

I say all this to bring up why I have Bird above both - that guy was a cold ice in his veins hillbilly who could shoot, playmake, defend and rebound. Plus I think he was the most clutch player of all time. If you put him in his prime and every player of today in their prime, where does he rank? He is the second best player today in my opinion.

Lebron
Bird
Jokic
Luka
Curry
Kleber
Durant
Giannis
Kawhi
CP3
Harden
SGA
Westbrook

Bird would be epic today. He would be a great 4 and be able to defend 4’s well, he’d be great at team defense. He’d average over 10 rebounds, over 3 stocks, 8 assists and over 30 points. He’s also a better shooter than Luka from everywhere on the floor, offensively he isn’t as good as Jokic (not far off) but a better defender.

Guy would be a menace today in a way I don’t think Magic would be. So ultimately I put him higher. But I sometimes talk myself into Kobe above him. So it’s fluid.

 

i think luka can do anything bird could and some things he couldn't. i guess bird was a better midrange shooter, but that could be an era effect (nobody takes them anymore). for all the fussing about luka not being an athlete, he's more athletic than bird was.

if luka played with the quality of players bird did early in his career, he'd have a couple rings already, too. bird and magic had stacked teams basically from the jump.

 

Lakers lose to the Kings 117-116

Smart 14 pts 3 reb 2 ast 4 stl good to see him creating havoc

Gabe 14 pts 4-5 from the 3 line

AR 0-7 from the 3 line

 

I know it’s just preseason, but this team is missing a lot that LeBron won’t fix.
Defense.
Athleticism.
True Defensive Anchor.
Bench.
Coach who realizes that small ball sucks.
Defense.
Defense.

 

Hopefully as sixth man he can help the bench. Our shortcomings are even more obvious when AR has a PP shooting game.

 

Did the list go from generational to top all time players? Not exactly the same. Curry is high on a generational player list bc of a specific skill set and championships. As far as all time greats I wouldn't rank him nearly so high. Most people tend to go with the generation they grew up with bc of familiarity. I like your placement of Bird. I kind of do a side by side with Bird and Magic.

 

i missed the game, so this was useful.

so interesting to hear guys talk about gabe--he must be pretty impressive in practice, etc. even when he's not playing well, guys sort of go out of their way to show him respect.

people talk about luka, but smart needs to drop a few pounds, imo. he'll keep getting those lower body injuries carrying that upper body weight.

speaking of--luka got up on that shot block. looks like they called a foul, but i'm not sure it wasn't just the ref being surprised that luka just went vertical and blocked it like a big, lol.

 

I think Luka has a lot of similarities to Bird’s game but if I compare and contrast them, I break it down like this:

Bird is the better pure shooter, he is better from everywhere on the court shooting wise - whereas Luka is the better tough shot maker.

Luka is a masterful on ball player that controls tempo and space but kind of poor off ball, he doesn’t screen, cut or catch and shoot well - whereas Bird wasn’t the primary initiator of his team, rather he was one of the best off ball player of his time, he didn’t hold onto the ball for long, when he got it he was attacking in the post, shooting or passing.

Bird wasn’t some great athlete, but he was 6’9, strong as heck and always in shape with really good durability for his first 9 seasons or so (hardly missed any games and averaged 39 mins a game until he hurt his back) - Luka also isn’t some great athlete and seems to break down easier than Bird did and not to be in the same kind of shape year in so far in his career (this year he looks to have gotten in really good shape)

Defensivsly I think it’s quite clear Bird was the better man and team defender. Luka so far has played the Harden defense - great in the post and intelligent enough to gamble successfully for steals. Let’s see if his new shape allows him to play better defense due to higher energy because we know he can.

To sum up I do think Bird was bigger, better durability, a better defender and better shooter while Luka is the better scorer, better play maker, and controls the tempo more. They’re killer instinct and athleticism is probably equal.

 

Curious how you or anyone else would rank all time greats and where today’s players insert into that list.

 

yeah, i just don't agree. but i'm not as big a bird fan as most, i guess. i think if luka had bird or magic's teammates, he'd have a couple rings already.

 

I think Duncan has become overrated and Bird has become underrated. He isn't athletic and as a result people just assume he couldn't cut it in today's age. The thing is, AFTER he hurt his back, he gave the business to a young hyper athletic Michael Jordan who guarded him - he averaged 27/9/7 with 3 stocks against him with a bad back. He also swept Michael twice in the playoffs.

Here is a direct quote by Michael Jordan:

Larry Bird deserves his flowers and why I have him at #4. He is a 30/11/8 playmaking power forward that is shooting 50/40/90 while providing elite team defense pre his injury. When alot of greats talk about him, they mention how he impacted winning, he would pass the ball and then box out or grab an offensive rebound or screen, do all the things that mattered and don't make the box score.

Luka is a wonderful player and I think he can win multiple championships and write his own story, we just have to see what that is.

 

I might work on that, would be interesting. I'm not sure how many years a player should have played to be eligible? Any ideas?

 

Bird scared the s*** out of me every time he shot - I think he'd benefit a lot from today's NBA games with the emphasis on the 3.

League was smaller and while their teams were stacked, other teams were stacked as well. I just don't see a team like Luka's Dallas team making it to the Finals in that era.

Feels like the passage of time is diminishing Magic and BIrd. I'm definitely not one of those guys who things players nowadays suck or something - I think the combination of increased talent pool (you're getting the best from all over the world) and better training/analytics does make a difference. But I think the data back this up is that overall talent level of the league has gone up, the real top end MVP type guys would have succeeded any time once you get to Julius and the modern high flying NBA. Anyways that is the long winded way of saying I think both Bird and Magic would have benefited from the same type of benefits in term of offensive system and training modern dudes have.

 

I think you can make any argument you want, abeer has made some great points on AD being the best defender since Hakeem in protecting the rim and being able to switch out and contest a shot.

I don’t mind hearing anyone’s takes, as long as they aren’t; older generations couldn’t hack it in today’s league. Oscar Robertson, Wilt, Bill Russell, MJ, Dr J, David Thompson, Dominique are some of the most athletic nba players of all time.

 

Oscar would be rule. Dr.J would be high on a generational list without a doubt.